Dark Veal Stock & Reduction

I'm making this stock now and am confused by these two instructions: "Let the stock gently simmer for approximately 8–10 hours, skimming and adding more water, as needed to keep the bones covered." And: "Cook the stock for approximately 9 hours, until it reduces by about 1/2." If I keep adding water to keep the bones covered, then how will it ever reduce by about 1/2? Also, I'm a little concerned because at about 6 hours in, my stock doesn't smell very good. I'm not sure exactly what it smells like, but far from delicious. Is that bad?

Sorry we didn't get to this question sooner... To answer your question, as the bones and vegetables cook they will sort of break down or compress and become smaller...meaning they will take up less space, so adding more water should not be a problem. Also, you don't always need to add more water. This is only necessary if they bones are sticking out of the water. No water covering the bones means no flavor will be extracted from those parts that are sticking out of the water. As for the smell...veal stock never really smells that great...at least not to me (and many others here at Rouxbe). It just sort of smells like cooking beef bones. I think that is why I most often make dark chicken stock instead of veal stock...it's culinary potpourri in the kitchen :-)

Thanks for the response, Dawn! That makes sense about the bones compressing. I ended up not adding extra water, and at about the 8 hour mark, putting in the bouquet garni. Once the stock was reduced by half I finished the stock. After straining it, I let it cool, then put it in the fridge so I could take off the solidified fat in the morning, proud of a hard day's work. Unfortunately, two things went wrong: 1) The stock came out kind of red-ish (maybe I used too much tomato paste?) 2) When I took it out of the fridge, a layer of fat was on top, but unfortunately below that layer of fat the stock had turned into a jelly. The only thing I can think of is that I should have let the fat separate out more before I put the stock in the fridge, or I should have used my fat separator. Next time I think I'll be making a chicken stock; after 8 hours of veal stock smell, culinary potpourri sound lovely.

You mention that two things went wrong - the first being the red-ish tone...I think you are correct in that maybe you just used too much tomato paste...no biggy really, I am sure it will still taste great. That is the best part about cooking we get eat what we practice! As for the "under the layer of fat the stock had turned to jelly" FANTASTIC! This means your bones had a good amount of fat and gelatin in them. This is why homemade stocks will reduce down to that nice sauce-like consistency when you are making pan sauces. Nice work! Happy Cooking with your stock!

I was definitely NOT expecting the jelly-like consistency to be a good thing! :) So now that my stock isn't at all liquid, how do I use it in a recipe? If I heat it up will it turn to a liquid? Do I mix it with water?

Fear not Jon, the stock will liquefy as soon as it is reheated. Do not add any water or else you will only water down the taste. Hope this helps!

Thanks!

In your video presentation the garlic was never added to the mirepoix. Alex V | Feb. 04, 2010

Might be hard to catch but at around 00:56 of step 1, the garlic is on the tray of vegetables that is being placed into the oven.

I made a stock similar to this using beef ribs. I started with 6 quarts of water and by the time I had reduced it to the point where it tasted like rich delicious stock with the compex flavor I was looking for I had 3 cups. I used it for pan sauces and it was awesome but I only got three meals out of it using 1 cup per pan sauce. Did I have to reduce it so much because I used ribs? Would I get more stock with that rich flavor if I would have used different bones? My stock never jelled and I am sure it was because I used ribs instead of shanks or shoulder bones. I spent 10 hours making 3 cups of stock! It was worth it but I would like to end up with a little more stock for my efforts.

There could be a few reasons why you got so little. For example the ratio of bones and mirepoix to liquid. I suggest you watch the Rouxbe Cooking School Lesson on How to Make Stock Fundamentals. This will provide you with many of the answers you may be looking for. There are also a few other lessons on stock making - How to Make Dark Stock and How to Make Veal or Beef Stock. Cheers!

I just got some veal knuckle bones from my butcher! I am excited to make the veal stock ... I always get excited when I am about to make stock. The 9L yield (I know it is approximate) is for the stock or the reduction? Thank you

The volume estimation is for the stock. How far you want to reduce it is up to you. Have fun making your stock! Cheers!

Making stock is a time consuming operation. Yet, so is cooking. Proper cooking takes time. After-all it is the love we put into each dish, regardless of the time, that makes us all happy and greatful for the experience of cooking all things well. Stock is a difficult task for most of us. As stated, before, so much work for so little results, is a questionable exercise. Yet, Once you complete this laboriuos task, you'll never buy stock from any store again. There is no replacement for the feelings of accomplishment of making your first successfull stock! Nor, can any store bought stock/broth every replace the most wonderful favors of that home made beautiful stock, regardless of its' origine. You can freeze stock and take a little at a time to make the most wonderful favors ever. Do not stop, make that stock, store the stock, and savor tha favor until it is time to make more. I hope each time, that when I remove the layer of fat, after the chilling period, that there is the most wonderful jelly below. Hail the jelly! Hail to stock! Hail to all that love the wonderfulness of cooking! Stock is a most precious ingrediant! It only took me about 10 times before I perfected the operation "STOCK!" After all, one can not learn until mistakes are made and over-come. Keep cooking to all, try it all, and continued success to ROUXBE! Your the greatest! Terry R. Jacksonville, North Carolina

Can you mix and match bones? For example, we had Veal Osso Buco last weekend and I froze the bones. Can I combine those with some different beef bones to make one stock? And then, since the bones have already been cooked, is it still necessary to caramelize at 425 degrees? Is beef ever purchased for the sole purpose of making stock and then discarded as in chicken stock? Thanks.

You can mix different beef bones together. Since the bones have been frozen, it might take a long time to try and caramelize them since all that moisture has to evaporate. Even though they have been previously cooked, the bones themselves wouldn't have caramelized (perhaps on the ends, but they would have been protected by the meat). It's up to you. You can caramelize the new bones for a bit more flavor and just add the leftover bones to the mix. Beef and veal bones are definitely purchased for making beef stock and are discarded after. It will be useful to watch the lesson on How to Make Dark Stock and How to Make Beef and Veal Stock. Cheers!

Can you please give me the ratio of bones, mire poix, and water for a 20 quart stock pot? I think this might be what went wrong with my last batch. Actually it was really good, but cooking times differed as well as viscosity.

The recipe calls for a 10 to 12 qt stock pot so I would just increase everything by double. cheers!

Thanks Dawn, So double the amount of hours from 10 to 20 on simmer?

I was only suggesting to double the ingredients not the time. The time may need to be increased slightly but not necessarily. You still want to follow the same indicators when determining how long to cook it. Cheers!

Should the bones be completely "empty"? After I had already removed the bones and was about to throw them out, I noticed there was a lot of gelatin still inside the bones. should I have cooked longer, or tried to remove it with a spoon?

The bones should be fairly bare after cooking. Sounds like you may have wanted to cook it a bit longer that gelatin will add more flavor and body the stock. Ah! the beauty of practicing. At least we get to eat what we make. Cheers!

It all makes sense now. This is probably why my demi glace didn't have that thick consistency. Still, it's delicious but next time I think I'm going to get it perfect. Thank you so much this really helps!!

Sorry, this is going to be a little long but I have some questions. I used 20 lbs of veal bones. Question one: As I was making my roasted veal stock yesterday I read where Thomas Keller will re-simmer the "left-over" bones, and mirepoix in clean water a second time for four hours, called remouillage. I did that and couldn't believe this morning that the second re-simmered batch was just as tasty and gelatinous as the first, although dark, not as dark as the first batch. So I combined both this morning and am now on my third day reducing, 7 more hours. I initially finished the roasting at 1:30 a.m., exhausted, then threw bones into a pot of water set on low and didn't get a chance to do any skimming until morning. It tastes good, but worried about skipping that step for the first 8 hours. Would like to hear your thoughts on the-no skimming part for the first 8 hours on an extremely low flame. Second question: Even though I bought a cleaver to chop the gigantic bones up, still couldn't get them into small chunks. So I'm wondering because I couldn't get them small, is that the reason the remouillage came out tasty and gelatinous? Looking into the bones the second time after I re-simmered them for another four hours-they still had a good amount of soft bone marrow, but was tired and finally threw out the bones. Third question: I simmered the bones initially for 14 hours. I did it longer this time because they are still so huge. But was reading about what temperature the water should be and come to find out my simmer wasn't high enough so when I raised the flame a bit scum started raising to the surface. I'm thinking because it was at a low simmer all those hours, (like too low), maybe there wasn't much scum to skim to begin with and maybe all this time I could have extracted a lot more flavor out of all my stocks because I couldn't be more accurate without a thermometer. So what should the temperature of the stock be while skimming? 190 degrees? 180 degrees? For me I'm lost without a thermometer especially when cooking stock in these crazy large pots, not to mention checking the done-ness of meat. I never thought to use it in a stock. Last question: Usually I strain my stock with a thicker cloth (not the loose cheese cloth) over a strainer much like a mesh-like chinoise. I never have any of those grains in the bottom of my stocks anymore after figuring out how to do this. Yesterday I made double the amount I normally do so skimming became a sort of nightmare. The cloth got clogged with a bunch more of thick solids stuff than usual. At first I was thinking it was scum so I kept rinsing out the cloth. But then I realized, I'm probably throwing out FLAVOR and it's supposed to be there. What was that brown thick stuff? Was it mirepoix? In any event I stopped throwing it out and put it back into the stock. Should I have kept pushing that brown thick stuff through the strainer into the stock pot, or have discarded it? Last question. Since my stock pot is so huge (and thin) I use a cast iron heat diffuser between it and the burner for better heat distribution. So it's not easy to regulate the temp very quickly. Sometimes I get that bubble or two rising to the surface, sometimes it comes to a light simmer in the center of the pot, so I turn it down. I also know the stuff at the bottom of the pot is going to be much warmer than what's at the top. Any comments on this would be appreciated. Especially surface temp to watch out for. I'm beginning to see where stock making is more of an art form, the more I do it the more questions I have. One day I would like to get so good at this I can become a stock maker. Is there such a thing, a stock maker? Ha! Well, one thing I did learn I am very grateful for. Many times when I see roasted bones for stock, it looks to me like there's a lot of black bits in the bottom of the pan and I've seen chefs on videos go ahead and throw them into the pot. I get so worried about those black bits turning my stock bitter, I'm probably under-roasting my bones. This time around I didn't seem to have a choice about the black bits and had more than usual which I usually throw out. I thought about throwing them out this time, but then realized there's a lot of black bits stuck to all those bones too, so it's not going to make much difference as they'll be in the pot anyway. So I added the red wine to deglaze and simmered away. Then tasted, it was horribly bitter. so I nearly threw EVERYTHING out, but then realized the bitter I was tasting may be from the wine, hello! so the next batch of bones I roasted (had to roast four separate trays of bones, I decided to actually taste one of those black bits. It tasted yummy. So I deglazed that time with water and tasted. It was good. I am no longer afraid of those black bits. I realized if you look really close to those "black bits" Yes they are dark, but you can see a lighter brown around the edges, that's when it occurred to me to taste them. Duh! So TASTING is really really important. I get that now. Thank God! Those black bits made me sooooo nervous every time I make roasted stock. They still do, but now I know to taste them if there is any question. Thanks for listening and any comments you might have.

One the last question, second paragraph that begins with: "Yesterday I made double the amount I normally do so skimming became a sort of nightmare." I STRAINING! Sorry!

Hey Jude, don't be sad... Take a brown stock and make it better... Remember to not overthink this task... Then you can start to make it better. Da da da da da da da da da That's my lame attempt at getting you to relax about the stock making process. If only everyone was as enthusiastic as you are with your practicing. #1 Usually the remouillage and initial stock are not combined as the remouillage - even though you say it tastes good - will weaken the color of the initial stock. Usually, a remouillage is used to add to stews or soups (rather than just plain water). If combining the two works for you, that's all that counts. Don't over think your stock so much. Yes, skimming will make the stock clearer...but if you didn't get the chance to do it initially, don't worry about it. What is important is that you taste the stock and if you are happy with the results, then work to find a balance that works with you. Many kitchens start veal stock at night and leave it over night to simmer...and there is no one there to constantly skim and fuss over the stock. #2 The smaller the bones, the easier it will be to extract the gelatin...but there is no need to get carried away. Obviously if the second stock was gelatinous, the bones were small enough. There will always be some matter in the marrow. It won't completely dissolve. #3 - 14 hours is a long time. There is a point where you can over do it and the mirepoix will start to disintegrate and cloud the stock. Raise the temperature so there is slight activity going on in the pot. This was discussed in this thread. Get out of the habit of using a thermometer to make stock and trust yourself by looking at the indicators. You might want to review the lesson on Submersion Cooking Methods, Topic 5 (Simmering). You are making some good observations, but again, don't over think it. #4 It's hard to say what the brown thick stuff was. It could be impurities stuck on the bottom of the pot, which is why it is best to not stir stock while it's cooking and to gently remove the bones and mirepoix before straining. Experiment and see. Strain some with a strainer or cheesecloth and strain some with the cloth that you are using. See if you can notice a difference in the flavor, color and clarity. Don't press solids through the strainer - this can add bits of mirepoix which will cloud your stock. Last question - Interesting set up that you have rigged up to keep a constant temperature. Review the simmering topic. The bottom of the pot will always be hotter as it is in direct contact with the heat source. The main thing is to just make sure your stock isn't BOILING! A light simmer is ok. Don't worry so much about it. My one bit of advice is to make smaller batches. I know for veal stock this is probably not worth it, but a white or dark chicken stock is just as good (if not better...at least we often do it here). We don't want to scare people away from making stock because it doesn't have to be such an ordeal. A couple of leftover carcasses are enough to get a small pot of stock on on a regular basis...and it's literally pain free. We also find that with smaller batches sometimes you don't even need to freeze them. Just keep them in the refrigerator and use it fresh as you need it throughout the week. Good that you are tasting things. You'll begin to understand what to and what not to incorporate into your cooking. Okay, after all that, I hope you also aren't having "stock" nightmares. Put your feet up and get some rest. You are cut off on the stock questions for a while (just kidding)...but really, don't over think it so much. You are leaps and bounds ahead of most cooks out there by just making your own stock. Cheers!

Ahhhh, thank you Kimberley. I am soooo relieved. I will save your comments for the next time I do this. Great advise all the way around. And how did you know about my stock-making nightmares? Love you!

Hello, can I use beef bones or ox tail instead?

The notes at the bottom of the text recipe mentions that beef bones can be substituted. You may also want to watch the lesson on "Making Veal and Beef Stock". Cheers!

Recently I made two legs of lamb for a Club event. I had the legs deboned and was wondering if lamb bones would make a good stock?

Indeed you can make a lamb stock. Just be aware that it will obviously have a strong lamb flavor to it so it won't necessarily be as versatile as a basic chicken or veal stock. You can also make a short stock with the bones or even mix the bones with some veal bones to reduce the stronger lamb flavor (though it will still definitely still taste of lamb). In this recipe for lamb taster there is a step on lamb short stock. You may also want to watch the lessons on Stock Making Fundamentals and Making Short Stocks. Cheers!

I notice in this video in particular, but caught it also in several other videos, that the knife being used to cut the mirepoix (even the smaller pieces of celery) is lifting off the cutting board between each cut. Send them back to school! :-)

I've started making my first beef stock (1 hr in so far) and came across a problem: 1. I read the thread above, but am still not clear on something. I have fairly big beef bones I'm using for my stock (bigger than my fist), I'm not sure these bones will get smaller, assuming they don't, then by adding water to above the bone levels, I don't know how I can reduce the stock by half, since I keep adding in water. What am I missing here? 2. The videos seem to show a pretty strong simmer (looks almost boiling?) is that the right amount of heat? I found I have to keep lowering the heat to prevent a full boil, right now I'm on my induction stove's lowest setting, so I see a bubble or two every few seconds --- Is this too low? First time trying this!! 3. My pot wasn't very large, so I used 2 big beef bones, plus the mirepoux (around 2-3:1 roughly (half onion, 1/4 carrot,1/4 celery), and added in 5 L of water. I hope this works, please let me know asap if something is wrong here so I don't end up ruining it! Thanks, you convinced me to finally try this.

Beef bones are naturally large. The bones will not shrink during cooking. You need to keep the bones and mirepoix covered with water during the simmering process. The reduction comes after you make the stock and strain it. It is THEN reduced to concentrate the flavors. At this point, it can simmer a bit briskly but NOT during the stock making process as you'll wind up with a cloudy stock. Stocks should always be simmered during the cooking process. The amount of stock is all relative to the size of pot and ratio of bones to mirepoix you choose to use. 2 beef bones doesn't sound like a lot for 5 L of water but keep going. You will still be flavoring water which is the point. Stock making takes some practice. It would be helpful if you watched (or rewatched) the lessons on How to Make Stock Fundamentals and Dark Stocks. Cheers!

Thanks Kim. I didn't realize that the reduction comes after straining, that makes sense now, and it's gonna be a lot easier after I strain it,for sure. I have a 6L Stock pot, that I put the 2 beef bones + mirepoix, in total I had 5 L of water, so I probably added around 3-4L realistically (other stuff added to the volume). Is that still reasonable? It's all kinda eyeballing here, I guess you can never have too many bones in a stock??? I saw all of the videos a few times today, I may need to pick up a bigger pot it seems to be able to put in more bones. There's no way I could fit in 12 lbs of anything in my pots!! What size pots do you guys use? It's been about 8 hrs now, so I'm gonna strain and reduce it. Hopefully there was enough beef flavour from those 2 bones, I guess I'll see once I reduce it and get it out of the fridge tomorrow.

Small stocks are fine...it's just a lot of work to go through, especially when you have to roast the bones, etc. to make this type of stock. It is worth it to invest in at least a 10-12 litre/quart pot if you are going to make stock on a regular basis - which you should if you are in the school! :) Again, it takes practice. Keep watching, reviewing and following the basic stock-making steps and you'll be a pro in no time. Cheers!

Hi Kim, Fair enough, it is a bit of work, I actually have 3 L of stock made, it tastes watery still, so I'll reduce to 1.5 L and hopefully that helps out. I'll consider getting a larger stock pot so I don't have to work this hard for hardly 2 L of stock. Thx for the encouragement, I've never cooked something that took 8-9 hrs before, it's a bit crazy! I'll post back in the morning to report how it turned out. Cheers.

Ok,I check the stock this morning, turned out tasty - but not quite what I was hoping for, this is what happened: 1. The stock is not very thick, kinda watery, definitely not gelly like - is this b/c I only used 2 bones? Can you make a small stock with 2 bones or is there some minimum number? Did I add too much water (about 3 L) to the mixture? 2. The colour is nice & dark, but it's opaque -- can't see through it at all like a gravy, it's cloudy! When I was simmering, I found it did come to a boil a couple of times despite using low-med heat. Should I use the lowest heat setting on my stove next time? I can't sit there watching it for 8 hrs, so how do you avoid it reaching a boil? I had it on power levels 4-5, maybe I should have used 1-2 on my induction stove? Is 1-2 too low to get the flavour out of the bones? Never done a long simmer before until yesterday. 3. Given that it came to a boil during the simmer, I think that may have caused the cloudiness right? What about after you strain it, can you use a soft boil to reduce it? I reduced it by half on medium heat (5-6), which was a soft boil but then realized after maybe could have also caused an emaulsion of the oil & water? Is this possible after straining? Or does that only happen when you're actually making the stock? Reducing the stock on a very low heat level would have taken hours and I was tired at this point..... Overall, not a bad first try or experience. Definitely need some guidance here on what to correct, and I'm gonna go and buy a larger stock pot (slim & tall) so I can use more bones without adding so much water which I think will make it more 'jelly' like. Taste wise: the stock tastes very good compared to my campbell's that I have. So I'm happy to report that and I will happily use this in my beef stew today :) Will have to give it another go when I finish the stock. Thanks!

Your stock is not gelatinous because you used so little bones to water. Refer back to the lesson on Stock Making Fundamentals, where we talk about the amount of water to use (just to cover plus a bit). The stock can come to a simmer but just not the boil; otherwise it will become cloudy. Also, make sure you've skimmed the impurities as they rise to the surface. You don't have to stand over a pot of stock, but you do need to baby it and keep an eye on it to control the temperature. Once it just comes up to a simmer, turn it down as shown in the video. The instructions in this recipe say to allow the stock to cool first so you can remove the fat cap before reducing the stock. There should not have been any fat left in the stock when you reduced it, so yes, if the fat cap was not removed, the stock can be greasy. Veal/beef stock is a big process and one of the most time-consuming of all the stocks. When care is taken though, it is one of the most rewarding. It takes effort. Review the videos again and again. You might also want to make a big batch of chicken stock - less cooking time but just as delicious. Keep on practicing and pay close attention to each step in the lesson on Stock Making Fundamentals. Have fun using the stock! Cheers!

Ah ok, I think did use the right amount water, but probably not enough bones... Getting a bigger stock pot will help getting more bones into the stock. Temperature wise, next time I'll just keep it on 1-2 so it doesn't start boiling, that was the issue I was having. I think I got mixed up about when to reduce the sauce. After I strained it, I then boiled to reduce it. I didn't cool it first, and now I realize I should have reduced it the next day. That would explain why it became so cloudy!! I didn't realize going into this, it was such a huge process, now I know. I hope the reward is worth all of the trouble! Next time I'll just do a chicken stock as you suggested since that's much quicker and less time consuming. Once I perfect that technique, then I'll try the beef / veal stock again, didn't realize I tried the hardest technique first, c'est la vie eh? Thanks for your responses and the tips, hopefully next time will be a much better success! Back to studying for me --- feels like I am in school again! Cheers!

I made the Beef Bourguignon, I followed the directions to the letter, the favor was good but very winey ( for a lack of a better word) not sure if this is a bad thing

I made my first sock (Chicken) the butcher didn't have Chicken bones so I got Chicken backs, could this be the reason why the broth was a bit cloudy?

The veal bones I got from the butcher are frozen, should I first defrost them before roasting or does it matter

As shown in the lesson on stock fundamentals, you can definitely use chicken backs to make stock; however, this is not what makes the stock cloudy. A cloudy stock is usually the result of boiling (not simmering) the stock. You can also start a stock with frozen bones - if you don't plan to roast them that is. In terms of the beef bourguignon tasting winey, it could be a combination of the type of wine you used and how rich your stock was in flavor. Cheers!

Thank's DT, was having an issue with the heat :(

The recipe calls for 8 to 10 L of water (part of which will evaporate and might be added again to cover the bones). The recipe also mentions to "cook the stock for approximately 9 hours, until it reduces by about 1/2" and the introduction states a 9L yield. I can't understand how I would obtain all that volume after evaporation. Thanks in advance!

Don't get too hung up on the exact amounts. Just be sure the bones stay covered as per the lesson. Be sure to watch the lessons called "Stock Making Fundamentals", "How to Make Dark Stock" and "How to Make Beef and Veal Stock" . Cheers!

Since I'm smoking salmon today (an all day process in which I have to keep a close eye on the smoker), it seemed like a good time to make a beef stock. I'm about 4 hours in on the stock, and it looks promising. Seems to have some nice flavours, but is watery tasting - a long way to go yet, so I expect that to change. I wish I'd reviewed the lesson before I started, though. Thank you for the lesson. Looking forward to results. Here's a question: What about canning it? It would have to be a pressure can due to protiens and no acid, so 75 minutes at 11 pounds, or so. Having gone to the effort of making the stock, I don't want to spoil it. I'm thnking the pressure can would make the stock boil in the jar, and I'm not sure if I would just end up boiling it out of the jar and losing it. So, if you have any thoughts before I experiment, I'd appreciate it. The motivation for canning instead of freezing is just to have it sitting there on the shelf looking pretty and ready to use when I get home from work with a craving for something special. Janice

As yes, reviewing the lesson before one starts is generally a good idea, but I am sure you know that. I guess we all just get excited sometimes :-) As for canning stock, we do not can our stock at Rouxbe; however, here is another thread that was started on this same subject. You may want to have a read through it as some Rouxbe users have attempted this and have also made several comments throughout that thread. Cheers!

Hi just to tell you that i am cooking all my life and love it and at age of 64 i discover that i am not cutting oignon properly,but i am catching up. tank you for your great school. Now , can you please tell me how and how long i can keep my beef stock? Sorry for my english, i am italian living in Italy and France, by the way if you need fois gras don't hesitate to hask me. tank again Giovanni

I've found the easiest way is to reduce it by about half and then measure it into zip lock bags of one or two cups. I use a canning funnel to pour into bags so that I don't soil the seal. Freeze them laying flat and they take up very little space. I'm sure you will use them up long before their storage expires. I don't know how long they would keep, but I would bet easily for 6 months.

I've made the dark chicken stock and now am planning the dark veal. It appears that most of the measurements are approximately double. I'm not clear on what 1/2 bunch of fresh thyme is (veal recipe) but since the chicken stock calls for 6 sprigs, I'm assuming that 12 sprigs will do. I grow my own thyme and don't know what a "bunch" would be. I've watched the video many times and only see the parsley going in so no clues there.Thanks for any tips! Kathleen F.

The reason measurements such as "1/2 a bunch" are giving in these recipes is because the amounts are more like estimates, rather than exact amounts. Don't get too caught up in exact measurements when making stocks as you are merely trying to flavor the liquid with the bones and/or meat, a bit of vegetable from the mirepoix and a bit of herbs from the bouquet garni. Once you become comfortable with making stocks, you will discover that they are quite fun to make. If I have leftover herbs, I store them in the freezer. Sometimes, I add 1/4 bunch and sometimes I add quite a bit more. It just depends on what I have on hand. But don't get too carried away. You don't want the stock to start tasting like a thyme flavored stock. It should still taste like chicken or veal or what ever kind you are making. Hope this helps to answer your bouquet garni questions. Cheers! p.s. Not sure if you have watched the lesson on "How to Cook and Use Herbs" but if not, you might find that helpful as well.

This is a very educational thread. The personal experiences that other members share here answer so many of my questions. Special thanks to you Jude O. for your detailed reporting of your own experience (here and on other forums). Last night I began my first beef stock. I've only been practicing with chicken stock thus far. After exploring the differences mentioned here on the site and referring to McGee on Food & Cooking, I picked up the bones from the supermarket and let it poach for some 16 hours. I didn't see much movement in the pot so I wouldn't call it a simmer. Question 1. What I recall from other forum posts is that this is all right. I can say it looks good, the consistency is a bit thin, but that is prior to reducing. Any opinions about that? When I had made chicken stock in recent months, I would skim and absorb the fat with a paper towel, then sift it through a strainer, then a fine plastic mesh old reusable coffee filter (cleaned of course), and finally through a tea towel. With all that, a fine film would still form on the surface of the reducing stock. I would skim that off too, although it did feel like it contained the desired sticky collagen for the gelatinous final product, which still was quite gelatinous. I see that in the veal reduction lesson that there is a final straining of the reduction without mention of having skimmed any filmy scum from the reduction while it was reducing. Question 2. Am I throwing away a bit of quality that should just be left there for a final sift? In closing I just want to say that the reference to 'remouillage' appealed to my sense of getting the most value out of the process. In McGee on Food & Cooking, Chapter 11 Sauces, under the section entitled "Meat Stocks and Sauces", there is a subsection about single and double stocks. Apart from using the freshly made stock as the liquid to extract more flavor from a new "set of bones" for a double stock, he mentions using the bones from the first batch a second time, not for a separate stock in and of itself , but as the liquid used to extract flavor from a second batch. I quote: "The resulting liquid can then be used to start the next fresh extraction of meat and bones." Page 600, UK edition. Thanks in advance. I look forward to feedback. Jim

If making stock from raw bones, I'd simmer rather than poach, to extract the most flavour. A 16 hour poach for chicken stock seems a bit much. However, a remouillage can be poached because the bones have already been softened. Älso, a remouillage can be just as flavourful as the original, once reduced a bit. You can use it to start a new batch of bones, but that implies it lacks body. Not the case if made with patience and slightly reduced. At our school the students often can't tell the difference when a remouillage has been reduced a touch. Q 2: Skim as often as you need to. Some of the flavour you may be leaving behind may not be ideal.

Thank you Tony. The 16 hours was for beef stock, not chicken. I mentioned chicken only to say that I haven't yet made any beef stock. The result was very gelatinous and dark. The remouillage was poached and I was even able to pierce some of the bones here and there. The result was a litre of golden soft gelatinous liquid that I intend to use as the starting liquid for a second batch with fresh bones. I'm glad you confirmed that I've been skimming properly. Thanks again.

It's my first time making the veal stock. I'm excited to finally be doing this. I'm pretty much following the recipe, but I've got a few questions: 1. I spent $43 (U.S. dollars) for 12lbs of veal bones at a local butcher in NYC. Is that a normal price? 2. Any thoughts on salting the mire poix and veal bones before they roast? Would that help to extract flavor or make it too salty in the end? I know salt in stock is "controversial." 3. The veal bones were still slightly frozen and a tad frosty when I used them. Will that adversely affect the end result? Thank you

First off, let me say "congrats on your first time making veal stock". Now to answer your questions: 1. Veal bones are generally more expensive than say chicken bones. As for what a fair a price is, it's hard to say. You could phone around to other butchers to ask them how much they are a pound. 2. Do not salt the mirepoix and/or bones as this could lead to a salty stock. As for adding a bit of salt to the stock, refer to the lesson on "Making Stock Fundamentals" for more information on this (in particular, topic 5 called "Adding Vegetables and Salt to Stock"). You may also want to review the other lessons on stock making as well. Particularly the lesson on making "How to Make Veal and Beef Stock". 3. As for using frozen bones, this is totally fine (as mentioned in Topic 3 of the "Stock Making Fundamentals" lesson). If however, you are planning to roast the bones, it is better to let them defrost otherwise they will simply steam rather than roast. Good luck and happy stock making. Cheers!

I had two follow up questions. I hope they are not too pedantic. Is it necessary to wash the onions (the recipe seems to imply that). It doesn't seem necessary since they get peeled. Also, in the video it looked as if the carrots were peeled. Is that also necessary? I did not peel mine, just washed them rigorously. From what I understand most of the nutrients are in the skin. Thank you very much!

Peeled-only onions are fine. Washed carrots are fine, however most cooks peel them. Nutrients will be lost after the long cooking period so you are looking for flavor really. Don't get too hung up on things with stocks. Just try not to boil the liquid or you'll get a cloudy stock (still usable though). Good luck. Joe

And if I may bother you with one last question: my stock did not reduce at all and I cooked it at a light simmer overnight. I assume it's ok because I can reduce it later.

Stock does not necessarily have to reduce while it is cooking. Basically you are just flavouring water. With that said, you are correct, if you like, you can reduce it later to concentrate the flavours. Cheers!

I halved the beef/veal stock recipe and followed to the letter EXCEPT that I had to stop and put it in the ice bath after only 6-7 hours of simmering. Although it smelled heavenly during cooking (like French Onion soup), the taste after chilling was a little bland and it wasn't as dark as I expected. Is it possible that the shorter cooking time could have affected the flavor that much? Is there anything I can do to save it? My stock is now in the fridge overnight to solidify the fat. After removing the fat, what is the best way to reduce it (boil or simmer, for how long) and will that concentrate the flavors more?

The shorter cooking time for these large bones could have an impact on the flavor of the stock, but the liquid is definitely more flavorful than water. The flavor will concentrate when you reduce it. You can simmer it until it reduces by half or even further (refer to Step 3). Once you start to cook with it, you will notice the flavor that it lends to the dish. Next time, plan ahead a bit more so that the stock can simmer for a good 9 hours+. Cheers!

This is my first attempt at making beef stock. I am doing okay so far but i have a question about the wine. I am not a wine drinker so could you please give suggestions for a good red wine and a white wine. I tried a recipe with white wine in it and I guess my choice of white wasn't exactly the best. It made my pan sauce taste a little off. Thanks

Congratulations Patti on making your first stock. As for which wine to use, you are not alone with this question. In fact, if you search Rouxbe (top right of each page) you will find many discussions on this very popular subject. Here is one thread in particular from Patrick O. that you might find quite helpful. Hope that helps. Cheers!

Would it be okay to make this recipe using only beef marrow bones? What part of the cow does a marrow bone come from, anyway?

Yes, this will work. Marrow bones come from the large bones of the cow, like the femur. I hope this helps!

There are times when I just want small amounts of stock for maybe a cup of chicken rice soup so what I have done is filled ices trays and frozen the stock that way and then all i have to do is just grab a couple, thaw and add my rice and maybe some left over chicken. It is an easy lunch without having to make a lot of food.

Those are great suggestions Patti. Thanks for sharing. It seems like you could do the same with tomato sauce and pre-cooked noodles.

I'm trying the dark stock using beef bones with a lot of bone marrow but no meat or fat on the bones, so they are not caramelizing. Will they still make a good, dark stock?

If the bones don't really have any fat (or meat) on them, try rubbing them with a some oil — this should help them caramelize a bit better. And if you are already done roasting them, then don't worry, the stock will still be good. It just might not be as dark or have as much of that "caramelized" flavor to it. To add a bit more color and flavor, cut a few onions in half and roast them. This is a trick that we sometimes used when making stocks in hotels and restaurants. Hope that helps. Cheers!

Thank you for the quick response, Dawn. This is reassuring since I'm making it for the boeuf bourguignon recipe, which I'll be serving to about 18 people on Christmas Eve.

No worries, Daniella, I am sure it's all going to be great. Another thing you might want to try, if the stock seems a bit weak, is to reduce it a bit, after it has been strained. This will concentrate the flavors and also darken the stock a bit. That said, I am sure with all of the wine and added flavors from the Bourguignon, it's going to be good either way. Good luck. Cheers!

Does anyone have experience using frozen veal bones (without thawing them first)? If not, what about any partial steps to work with frozen bones more quickly?

Sorry. Just saw the comments about roasting frozen bones, which I would require. What about quick thawing in a water bath?

Frozen bones are generally not recommended as they do not typically take on color very well (due to ice crystals and excess moisture), but you can overcome that by applying more heat (or longer roast time) and also by making sure to turn the bones a lot during the first phase where the bones roasted for color. You can also simply blanch the bones first - and some prefer to do that anyway for clarity. Let us know what you do and how it works. Cheers.

I thawed on the counter for as much time as I had (2 hours), and then finished by blanching and trying with paper towel. The bones roasted beautifully, but I used half fresh beef bones to be sure. Simmered overnight, and now looking and smelling great! Thank you.

Thanks for reporting back on this, Peter. It sounds like you found a good shortcut and you otherwise made it happen. Great work.

Hi, I've made veal stock this weekend and reduce it to 'Glace de viande' (5.5 quart gelatineous veal stock reduced to 22 tbsp glace) and taste fantastic. My question is when you ask for example 1 cup demi glace in a recipe, how to know if it's the same consistency as mine? If i have a reduction of 1:20, is my glace too reduced? Will i need to dilute it a little for sauces? For the stock I've used 5kg veal bones, some mirepoix and 9 quart water. Thank you.

First, you made a very concentrated glace de viande - great work! It takes patience and forethought to get it done correctly. Glace de viande and demi glace are not the same thing - demi is stock reduced by 1:2-1:4; whereas glace de viande is reduced to 1:10 or even more concentrated (you have 1:20). So, you have something that is at least 4-6x stronger than demi glace. if you need 8 oz (1 cup), try 1 /1/2 to 2 oz of your glace and that should be a good starting point. Good luck! ~Ken

Many thanks for the quick and informative reply. Really appreciated!

I am serving 20 guests Christmas dinner. Tomato and Leak soup, Salad and filet mignon as an entree.A bit ambitious for me but I think I can pull this off. (with Rouxbe's help)I have made a beautiful looking but almost tastless veal stock. Its in the frig in a jelly like form. So far so good. I plan to reduce this to a demi glace. Will I be able to serve the demi glace as the sauce? or will I need to enhance it with other ingredients? Thats it for now, Thanks

Hi David - If it lacks flavor as a stock, it needs to be seasoned. Reduce it to demi and season it. Just see what some salt does for a small amount of demi (like a spoonful) and then add more to the batch to season it properly. You can add other things to a demi to enhance it, like herbs and aromatics, but it should have a huge amount of flavor and texture on it's own. ~Ken

Thanks for your speedy reply. I have reduced the stock to a demi glace and added salt. Your right its delicious. thanks again for waking me through the final stage of the reduction.

May I use pressure cooker to shorten the time in the process please? If so, I have a problem in making a clear stock as I cannot take away impurities or fat because I couldn't let the pot open for simmering. Although I may take out fat after freezing the stock afterwards , I am afraid the impurities would mix in the stock which is no good. Thanks

Hi Karen, The pressure cooker will speed up the process but, as you eluded to, it takes away your ability to control the fine details. The impurities would be emulsified into the stock, creating cloudiness. This is not the end of the world though, depending on how you use the stock. It all comes down to you and your priorities. If you want a clear and "perfect" stock, the old fashioned way is the only way to go. Though, if timeliness is your priority, you may be ok with sacrificing perfection. I hope this helps... Cheers, Sandy

I am considering preparing my own veal stock and demi glace, because I am really fed up with all the added flavors in the commercial products (who needs caramel syrup in a stock!!!) and I have some questions about preserving the stock and the demi glace. Say I cook the stock and remain with 3-5L which I can freeze for further use. This one is easy - zip log bags or ice cubes, than can easily take the quantity I need. So here my first question - do I need to thaw the stock before using it, or I can just put the ice pack in e.g. the soup and let it thaw in the pot? Sometimes one can forget taking it out of the freezer on time And then the demi glace. I know it is quite concentrated and packed with flavours, and I read at some of the comments to not add water to it. But let's say I ran out of stock, could I use some of the demi glace and add water for cooking a soup? And what should the ratio be in this case? Thanks

Hi Yulia, Thanks for your questions! As far as making soup (or anything else, for that matter) with stock that has been frozen, it is always better to defrost the stock first, so you can have control over the entire cooking process. It also in speeding up your overall cooking time, though that seems counter-intuitive. I recommend, defrosting the stock in a pot on the stove (by itself), if you are in a hurry to do so. For the demi glace question; adding water will take away the concentrated flavor and texture achieved by the reduction process. That doesn't mean you can't add water if you want to have the thinner, stock consistency, once again. If you reduced it by half, then however much demi glace you have, add an equal amount of water. Hope this helps! Cheers, Sandy

Food safety reasons? What difference does it make i.e. cooling anything prior to refrigerating? I've come across this belief before but believe it is an old wives tale.

Hi Margaret, It is, indeed, due to safety reasons. If you don't cool the stock down first and put such a large mass in the refrigerator hot, it takes much longer to get it through the "danger zone" of temperature, causing more bacteria growth time. It also tends to warm up your refrigerator, putting other foods in it at similar risk. Hope this clears that up! Cheers, Sandy

Hello, Is it a good idea to add meat scraps — the trimmings from breaking down a whole chuck or sirloin that didn’t end up being used for ground beef, including silver skin and tendons — to a beef stock? I’ve seen recipes where these scraps are browned in the stockpot before adding the bones and mirepoix. I’m just not sure whether some of these trimmings could negatively affect the broth, or which ones are best to use.

Hello Omar, the trimmings you've mentioned sound fine for this brown stock or reduced version. If you want to add trimmings to the stock and trimmings are basically muscle (e.g., not offal), the results will be fine. ~Eric

Hello Omar, the trimmings you've mentioned sound fine for this brown stock or reduced version. If you want to add trimmings to the stock and trimmings are basically muscle (e.g., not offal), the results will be fine. ~Cyrus

مرحباً عمر، تبدو بقايا اللحم التي ذكرتها مناسبة تماماً لتحضير هذا المرق البني (أو النسخة المركّزة منه). فإذا كنت ترغب في إضافة هذه البقايا إلى المرق، وكانت عبارة عن لحم عضلي (أي ليست من الأحشاء الداخلية)، فستكون النتيجة ممتازة. ~إريك

שלום עומר, שאריות הבשר שציינת מתאימות בהחלט לציר החום הזה או לגרסה המצומצמת שלו. אם תרצה להוסיף את השאריות לציר – ובתנאי שמדובר בנתחי שריר (ולא בחלקים פנימיים, למשל) – התוצאה תהיה מצוינת. ~סיירוס